Tuesday, February 08, 2005

no sabbath?

I got this from a coworker at work.

from Moody Bible Institute
Founder's Week

its a little pamplet, on P13. I'm retyping quickly so I appolgize for type-o's

Does Genesis 2:3, which predates moses and the ten commandments mean that observance of the sabbath is binding on us Christians as it was on Jews?

A compplete answer requires more space than we can allot to the issue here. However, here is my answer to the question on posed. No, observance of the sabbath is not binding on Christians. Genesis 2:3 has no bearing on the subjct; it notes only that God rested on the seventh day. The seventh day was not ahllowed (established as a day to be observed) until centuries later--at the time of the events described in exodus 16:22-30. Then, it was given to the people of israel, not the gentile world. It was also unique amongh the Ten Commandments in that it alone was not morally bniding forever. In the eternal state, it would be wrong to worhsip false gods, to bear false witness, etc. But there was no evidence that the sabbath would be observed. It was a temporary commandment given exclusively to the people of israel.

what do ye nerds say to that?


forkev said...

temporary commandment. wow. i didn't see that angle coming. My mormon friend has been surprosed by my 'blank and white' entrepretation of the 10 commandments. I don't see what is so confusing about it. it's inturesting they site NO EVIDENCE for the 10 commandments only binding the isrealites. why on earth does everyone else use them for a frame of refernce if they are not binding to us today? Furthemore, why accept the commandments as a whole, but attack one to say it's not morally binding. if that is true, then ALL of them are not binding. they were given as a set. not as 'pick an choose'. this slipper slope could be just the justification many are looking for to condone yanking out the adultry one, or honesty. what on earth.

forkev said...

a search for 'sabbath' on moody.edu yielded only a few results. http://www.moodymagazine.com/articles.php?action=view_article&id=1216 discusses the 'sabbath commandment' but leaves out the seventh day part. figures.

palegreenhorse said...

the commandments in all respects except the sabbath fit into our current society, that's why people refer to them. they think our society is great, it matches the commandments, so if i need to trim a corner off them to make them round to fit into my ideal no big deal. ultimately i think we like the commandments because they empower our ideals of ourself...except for the sabbath.

1. we are selfish so why shouldn't god be selfish and want no other gods. if god says he is selfish then it validates our selfishness. (everyone is unique or special is a favorite saying.)
2. no idols makes sense to us now because people want to be famous, not have their picture famous. ie they want to be recognized in the grocery store not be ignored in the grocery store over a picture in a magazine. this is also shown on our part in that we make a big deal out of actually seeing someone in person even if it is from a distance. so our desire to be celebrated in person is validated by God's inclusion of this commandment.
3. misuse the name. obviously we are really big on this issue. celebreties sue for misuse of their name or image in marketing. signatures, social security numbers, pins... etc are all regarded as very personal today. protect your own stuff is really what this says to people.
4. here's the sabbath. i'll come back to it at the end.
5. honor your father and mother. parents desire respect from children. some parents want to live out their lives through their children so they expect the kids to take their advice verbatum. this commandment tells us that a having some system of some people are better than others is okay. we extend this to many different structures (jobs, church, social status) and feel justified because God says you have to 'honor' some people.
6. don't murder... obviously none of us want to be killed and this validates that our sense of wanting to live is justified.
7. don't commit adultry means that we are justified in wanting someone to be our very own. we want someone to commit thier entire life to our own purposes and this commandment validates that feeling.
8. more of selfishness. my stuff is my stuff.
9. false testimony... this could validate a lot of things but i think it means to many that we are justified in expecting others to not injure us (emotionally, physically, spriritually) intentionally. ie i expect everyone else to care about what happens to me based on their actions.
10. don't covet. don't even lust after my stuff i am so selfish. just admire me for being so awesome.

but the sabbath. it says stop. it says you don't get to work or make others work. you are to remember that you are 1 (exodus 20). created (not all powerful, not a god, a good image but ultimately you point to God) 2 (deuteronomy 5). a slave that was rescued. you aren't capable of saving yourself.

we have vacations and you would think that this commandment would justify those, but really this isn't saying take a vacation. the sabbath commandment is saying remember you are not your own boss. we don't like to remember that.

k2h said...

slipper slope
blank and white

kevs just got it covered from every angle.

forkev said...

From my friend darin.

That's interesting, who was the first comment from in that blog that said God did not hallow the Sabbath at creation (somebody from Moody)? Moody, at least here in Spokane are quite anti-Adventist, won't air community calendar announcements, etc. on their station here in (*OMITTED CITY) for Adventist events, don't consider Adventists mainstream Christian believers? I tried to start a discussion one time about the state of the dead with their manager, and he blew me off. I was going to post this message (below), but I didn't feel like taking the time to create a user-name/password on the site, feel free to cut paste it. Or just enjoy my immense wisdom and articulation for yourself, selfishly. haha

Respectfully, and assuming our fine gentleman is a sincere seeker of truth, I must say I'm not clear on what he thinks "hallowed" means. Genesis 2:3 clearly states that God "blessed" the Seventh day and made it "Holy." At creation there were more than Israelites created, obviously...He blessed the day at the time of creating ALL mankind.
But in addition to this, some have deleted the forth Commandment and believe that the Sabbath is now a thing of the past, check out Isaiah's vision of heaven in chapter 66 vs.23: "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me." Wow!
Again, for those that believe that Sunday or any other day is suitable in place of the Commandment honoring the Seventh-day Sabbath, in Mark 7:7 Jesus refers to our worship, saying: They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. They have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.
Some say, "if the Sabbath was so important, why didn't Jesus make a big deal about it, and why is it mostly talked about in the Old Testament. I say, check your Bible, there are at least 56 references to the Sabbath in the New Testament, alone! And we say it's not important now?! Finally, a text that speaks on this topic, from Jesus' own lips:
Mt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It's our responsibility to live up to the commands of God, rather than the traditions of earth's "wisest teachers." But we must also be sure to LOVE each other! The greatest commandment!

e-tin_meat said...

Hola good people. I am the fancy fellow who provided K2H with such remarkably offensive material. I have only a couple of comments. I hadn't heard of Moody before reading this little pamphlet, but once I came across it I thought it an interesting take on the Sabbath. I actually didn't agree with it, but it is always good to investigate things that will, through questioning, either uphold one's belief or provide evidence to reconsider. So everyone is clear, there was zero intention of debasing K2H's belief in the Sabbath, as I admire him a lot and we have the most interesting conversations about such things. As a matter of fact, I am currently reading (with an open mind), "Seventh-day Adventists Believe...".

However, I must say that I am offended K2H turned this into Blog-Fodder instead of speculative conversation between similar believers. In retaliation, I will probably discontinue reading the literature he provided on the Seventh-day Adventist beliefs. I will not, however, post for degradation the things I have read that I do not believe, agree with, or understand.

My only question is this: Don't Adventists selectively follow Levitical law?

Sarah said...

Hi, e-tin_meat—I haven't piped up on this conversation yet as I really didn't have much to say, but I wanted to address your comment. I don't believe that any of the resident nerds found the material offensive, just odd and inconsistent (hey, nerds, if I'm reading ya wrong, speak up... not trying to put words in nerd mouths).

K2H's initial posting had very little in the way of commentary and to me, seemed to just be encouraging a dialogue on whether or not this point was valid. The subsequent comments primarily concluded that the point was NOT valid, and scripture was cited to explain that thinking. Like I said, I didn't get involved because I felt that I didn't have new thoughts to add, and the disucssion was reasonable and followed the scripture mandate of weighing things against the Bible.

I completely agree with your assessment that "it is always good to investigate things that will, through questioning, either uphold one's belief or provide evidence to reconsider." I have recently done this on another issue that was brought to my attention, and I honestly like being (respectfully) challenged on Bible-based beliefs because it is usually the catalyst for a lot of interesting study to figure out if I know what I'm talking about (frequently I don't).

I'm very sorry that the conversation (or K2H's actions) has offended you. I didn't see this conversation as any different from most of our others on this blog in that the nerds 'round here love to speak passionately about pretty much everything. On reflection, though, I can see why you would feel that way. I believe (and again, I can't speak for everyone—but that won't stop me from trying!) that the intentions of this group were not to degrade anything, but to call truth for what it is or isn't as stated in the Bible. However, we're not always the most sensitive or tactful bunch of people.

And now I've rambled my way to your actual question: "Don't Adventists selectively follow Levitical law?"

As I understand it (and remember that I just said that I frequently don't know what I'm talking about!) Adventists don't follow any of the Levitical law, at least, not because it's Levitical law. Many Adventists do act in ways that are in accordance with L.L., but for other reasons; the best example of this that I can think of is vegetarianism. Many (but definitely not all and quite possibly not even the majority) Adventists have followed the counsel of Ellen White, one of our church founders, and adhere to a vegetarian diet. Howver, that is a health related issue, practiced because of the belief that it's a better way to care for our bodies (the temples of God, right?). It's a way of taking care of ourselves rather than something we do because it's a Levitical law.

All that said, I'm not a strict vegetarian. Why? Too lazy, mostly. I'm actually a "vegetarian of convenience" in that I eat meat or don't eat meat based on how easy it is. So I should probably let the veggies among us speak for themselves, as I'm obviously less qualified. However, the point is that I don't believe I know any Adventists who claim to follow any of the Levitical laws, even when the choices they make (for other reasons) coincide with them.

Okay, I've rambled way too long, especially as I was originally just intending to post a cool entry on my own personal blog. Bottom line is, I am individually very sorry if we have offended or alientated you in any way, and I would gladly make ammends if I knew how.

palegreenhorse said...

e-tin_meat: i agree with sarah. we weren't trying to offend in any way. to us blog fodder is a chance to have long distance and/or time drawn out conversations that we wouldn't have otherwise. sometimes the conversations are light (ie the lincoln fry on my blog) and sometimes they are on serious matters (ie this post on the sabbath). based on my interactions with all the nerds that are members of this blog i would say that 1. all have opinions 2. all respect that others have opinions that could differ significantly and 3. understanding comes from reading and thinking about things that you agree with and disagree with.

if you were in a room with all the nerds on this blog and had this conversation i think you find that we would acuse each other of things like not being logical or having support even when we agreed. we use the blog as a opportunity to say things and see how they stand up.

bottom line: k2h didn't post this as a flippant item to mock. that would be like saying that every in person conversation he has must not be about serioius matters and taken seriously if he has one conversation that is light and joking. i can't think of a single nerd here that wouldn't renounce a belief if good support was found in the Bible to do so.

palegreenhorse said...

oh ya... the selective levitical law.

yes the sda's do selectively follow the levitical law. that is a major point i would like more adventists to acknowledge. they pretend like they aren't selective and they are. they don't eat what are known as unclean meats (ie crab, eel, pig, rabbit...).
fundamental belief 21 refers to this in one sentence "Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures." then the scriptural reference of Lev. 11 is given. this is a silly support in my opinion becuase right after this chapter are rules about cleansing after childbirth and skin diseases that we don't follow. i think a careful reading of the book shows that there is no difference in the laws given about unclean foods and other uncleanliness (childbirth, skin disease, mold, bodily emissions). in my opinion if adventists want to say that we shouldn't eat certain meats (if you choose to eat meat) then we shouldn't use levitical law to support it unless we want to get a pastor over every time we find mold in our house or have to obey the whole uncleanliness rules about women and their periods. there are good reasons about why we don't follow those rules anymore and, i think, some good reasons why God decided to leave them in the Bible for our reading years later.

p.s. i think k2h (and i) will be disappointed that you will stop reading stuff that he loans or gives you because you give a fresh perspective on some stuff. we really appreciate that and respect hearing what you have to say about things we believe.

Sarah said...

Heh. Like I was just telling palegreenhorse yesterday, I need to read up on the 27(ish) Fundamental Beliefs. Me personally, I'll eat pepperoni or bacon from time to time though I definitely don't go out of my way to do so. Mostly if I'm going to take in that many fat calories, I'm going to pick chocolate any day! I guess I get to add another caveat to my Fundamental Beliefs adherance.

k2h said...

I think e-tin_meat was offended for a few reasons, but I"ll definatly be making things right. i'm not one to piss people off unintentionally.

BUT. he brings up a good point. we (all of us) just throw our preconceived ideals at a statement and wipe our hands of the issue with a 'thats that' statement. Life is much more complex than a simple answer and I'm thankful for the candid response.

forkev said...

i must do some backpeddling here. most of the *known* readers of this blog come from the Seventh-day Adventist persuasion and i must conclude I tend to get carried away. I appologize if you feel your pamplet got ripped to shreds. That was not my intention, maybe just how it came out. (whatever that means...good one kev...)

"selectively follow Levitical law"?
Absolutely. I haven't seen any homosexuals killed with an advantist stamp of approval on it. you do bring up a good point. i'll have to think about this.

forkev said...

beautiful. i love this topic. i just got into a discusion with my wife and she concludes we do NOT follow Levitical law, Levitical law just happens to contain some things we beleive in. WOW, what an idea.

this is shaping up to be a good topic to bring to the three amigoes (the conference president and his two aids). It's a good thing I work in a religious environment...maybe this'll even make it to a brown bag lunch discussion Darin and I are suspose to lead.

I hope e-tin_meat will stick with us as it's been months since i've been this inturested in a topic.

e-tin_meat said...

Good evening, I hope all of you had a great Sabbath. I didn't do anything today but play computer golf, download KOTOR II, mess with my kids, and get my ox out of a ditch, so I'm counting that as compliant.

I have to admit, this is turning into a decent discussion, which kind of sucks because I preferred being upset over it. I really thought it sucked that while I was giving K2H's material a hard read, this happened. All this despite the fact I never agreed with Moody's take on the Sabbath anyway. I did pick up the 27 beliefs book again today, but I was not quite over it so I sat it down again. Sorry for letting the sun settle on my offense again, but I'll get over it. I appreciate all that's been said since. Besides - any of you have any luck being mad at K2H for any length of time?

If you don't mind, I would like your thoughts on the following, my current crisis. Inspired thoughts only! No scripture pummeling.

If I were born smack dab in the Middle East, I would almost guarantee all of you I would be a card-carrying Muslim; turban and dirty nightshirt not withstanding. The same could be said of most religions. I could lay out a decent argument citing scripture to prove most any current theistic view. You want to drink, I have it covered. You want to abstain, I have that too. You want multiple wives (good luck), here's your hall pass. Women priests? sure, unless you don't want them. Mark of Cain: do you prefer protection or prejudice? sorry...you get the point. For years and years I backed up what the Assembly of God folks said and did because that was what my parents taught me. I even got to attend a few Baptist sponsored classes on why everyone else is the devil (read like waterboy's momma). They don't like Adventists or the Catholics - go figure. No wonder all the major players have a hard time converting each other!

Now, does the Bible conflict itself? I have to believe it does not. Does 'fulfill' mean complete and do away with or cover and continue? I'm not really sure. I'm only sure that Christ died for the sins of the world and that the only path to salvation is through accepting this and aspiring to a personal relationship with Him. After that, the more I read the less I know what was culture, period or nation specific. I think it's great that all of you feel you have a good grasp on this (please, there is absolutely no sarcasm or disrespect here), but I do not.

If you have time and would humor me, please address this: define fulfill.

forkev said...

"fulfill", in biblical context. i'm on it. give me a bit.

e-tin_meat said...

Wow! I'm guessing it's over.